A few days ago I lost every bookmark I had. Fair weather Firefox let out its last fart and died. I had to destroy every remnant of it and reinstall. My saved bookmarks did not save.
A few months back I wrote a couple of posts on pornography ( Listed over there on my sideblog temporarily, for convenience sake.) I had bookmarks filled with information on pornography, planning as I was to write another installment on why porn sucks. Time got away from me. I graduated, got a real job, needed sleep, and then “the fox” died.
You’re all breathing a sigh of relief, I can hear it.
I will continue briefly without links.
I wrote a post for Back up you Birth control. One of the commenter’s called me a hypocrite because I write “against” pornography but “for” backing up birth-control. In other words because I’m for sex but against pornography I’m a hypocrite, because as we all know sex is porn. The concept made no sense to him because in his misogynistic little mind sex and porn are the same thing.
Here lies the problem, the same problem I encountered in a recent email where someone of the same mindset wrote “you have a picture where the tops of your breasts are showing and yet you constantly write against pornography”.
What do these two comments have in common? Both are equating perfect acceptable and normal, things, sex and breasts, with pornography.
This is what happens when pornography becomes a part of every day life.
To people who view it pornography becomes the standard. Sex is porn and vice versa.
This Janice Tuner — Guardian UK quote from some time back sums up my thoughts fairly succinctly.
“Once porn and real human sexuality were distinguishable.”
Fact is they no longer are distinguishable, thanks to technology. Your eleven year old son has access to this stuff, your neighbor’s eleven year old son and the nine year old two streets over. These boys will grow-up thinking of women as things to do something to, maybe your daughter will grow-up thinking the same thing. As long as they have access to pornography before they have access to real information about life, people, love, sexuality, and humanity.
This is not your daddy’s playboy – a term coined somewhere – is more true every day. The explicitness and degree of degradation has increased more than exponentially over the last twenty years. Not to mention the general media is doing a pretty good job of degrading women — dead bleeding and splattered all over the sidewalk, legs akimbo with their panties always showing. The porn sector is even worse. Due to technology it is ever so available to the masses, the young masses, with brains not fully developed, not grasping the concept of relations and respect.
With eighty-percent of the pornography online depicting women in subservient, dominated or otherwise compromised or degrading situations, and supposedly loving every minute of it, no one can convince me most men/boys know it’s not reality.
It’s easy to ignore but it will hit home eventually one way or the other. The technology will encourage it. This ever so pervasive access to online pornography will forever change the perception of the future mates of your daughters.
Remember that.
references to related posts below
What is Pornography? A prelude to why I don’t like porn.
Gang Rape Scene — Erotic Fantasy?
Pornography and The Dead Fox
I think the main issue of communication is your definition of pornography, which is vastly different from the concept that the word evokes in most minds. I don’t think anyone in their right minds would seriously consider your photos to be in the same league as, say, a bukkake shoot. But something like Suicidegirls (and I know you take issue with its ownership and its marketing but I’m talking about content)?
I know that you’re not beholden to anyone else’s definitions, but being sensitive to them makes communication a lot easier, and moreover, puts you on sturdier ground if you’re trying to get people to think. And in a society that in most contexts deems a bared breast obscene, you run the risk of appearing to come down on the side of the oppressors. I know that you don’t, but that doesn’t say a thing for anyone else who might be reading you.
cooper, I agree that the pervasiveness of pornography, as you defined it in your previous posts, is a horrifying fact of technology. It does have an effect on the people who view it — substantiated through enough research.
I see clearly how it could affect the minds of boys watching and your point does hit home because I have a son.
ha, ha,
“The Fox Died” nice.
I see the point and it’s valid. If people really do equate breasts and birth control with porn then something is mixed up somewhere.
Looking at everything out there from a male perspective is different than looking at if from a female perspective. There is plenty of evidence that the end result of pornography on young men is harmful to their future relationships. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
The Times had an article about the major pornography industry feeling the bite of the internet and losing money to low budget stuff.
And I just found this while looking up pornography on google news.
Enjoy.
A nation pornified
I’m with you.
I love naked women though.
The difference is simple. Pornography is intransitive degredation. Love is transitive degredation.
daaaaaamn. Doug for the win
[…] Check out Cooper’s post on Pornography at Wonderland or Not. […]
I’ve had problems with Firefox since I did an update a couple of months ago. I haven’t reinstalled yet but I’m thinking about it. Boo to dead foxes.
I tread carefully here any time you post on this because I do not want to step on anyone’s toes.
I agree with you, it’s good you posted your old posts it defines what you mean.
The oppressed can not become the oppressor but by oppression.
That’s what I think.
This makes me think of those people who covered up the breasts of the “Blind Justice” statue before some pol would do a speech in front of it. (don’t remember the real name of the statue or the pol).
The human body is not just one thing. It can be sexy, innocent, erotic, artistic, full of life or still as death, or hundreds of other things. And it doesn’t matter, or shouldn’t, if the body is clothed or nude to be any of those things. (“things” is such a poor word, but I can’t think of anything better at the moment) It is all intent. Unless, of course, the viewer is one of those poor people who think all nudity is sexual.
Dammit, I have to stop blogging on other people’s blogs.
Really well-written post. As someone who loves both porn and sex and does understand the difference I think you covered the bases. Porn is 99% about fulfilling male fantasies and there is definitely a large portion of the population for which the line has blurred. Althoug I will say there are some women who knowingly have no problems doing just that and are more than happy to take on the role of a porn star in the bedroom.
Thanks from me to you coo.
EW: I’m not sure what you mean studier ground. My definition is posted in a previous post and is pretty clear. I don’ t need to have a ground for my opinion my opinion is my opinion and would be were it standing on a cloud. As a man you really have no right to say I need studier ground I don’t because women overall are the one being oppressed in this case.
I hardly think saying that when one thinks of porn and sex and breasts in the same category something is wrong is being the oppressor because frankly something is wrong when that kind of thought melds.
JACOB: I have no doubt your son will be brought up with the necessary skill sets jacob.
G: Thanks G. I read the Times one last weekend. The Oregon one I’ll read later.
Doug: That was good Dog. I can say nothing more.
casey: Just do a back up your bookmakers and keep them far away. I’m not sure what happened to mine.
I’ have to think on that last sentence.
coyote: that as not a blog ..that was a mere dribble.. I think you have posted much longer ones here. ;0
Goldy: My issue is with all porn because I despise it but that having been said I’ve never met a guy whose fantasy I particular wan to enhance.…oh but for…
I do not care what gets people off in the privacy of their own home. I think it dangerous when young men, are viewing things such as this and the fact of technology has made pornography ever more dangerous, to women and to society. Sex is a good thing but it is not porn. Sex is doing the dirty anyway way you like in a mutually respectful relationship– fast slow upside down in stocking or in a horse saddle I don’t care.
I think if the male fantasy is to humiliate, beat , rape, hit , smack down , piss on, or tie down a women something is definite wrong with that male, and with the society from which he comes.
I believe each person is a product of their own conditioning, and has the ability to stop from causing harm to themselves or anyone at any time by accepting blame, and knowing how to accept blame done to them by others.
I think long term denile causes hate, and I believe this same hate (hate=depiction of women)is being brewed over guilt from both men, and women from a very long history on Earth.
How does change happen? When both parties accept blame, and make it happen.
I responded to this on my blog because I got a bit long winded. http://gregbecerra.blogspot.com/2007/06/dirty-stuff-you-shouldnt-be-reading.html
I believe you misread me. I never said anything about what you needed. I was merely saying what you would be better served by. Telling me I don’t have the right to say that is wrong.
I know wombat you are always looking out for my best interest and I’m saying that although it might be the case if people can’t see the difference then I’m really in the so what mode because you just can’t please everybody.
Greg: I’ll check it out when I get home this evening.
If there is something to do to prevent this I don’t know what it is. Technology will breath life into the far corners of the world and it will damage some. Pornography, as you describe it, is damaging. The perception becomes reality because there was never a reality to begin with. That will be the danger.
If I were a women I would not laugh it off and call it harmless but cooper as you know many women do.
I don’t know what pornography used to be. These days it is vile, but people are numb to it.
Greg: I had to write my response here as blogger doesn’t take well to html. So this is on response to your post.
The definition of erotica was used in that previous post to let my readers know I myself made a distinction between pornography and erotica and to clarify where I was coming from. My readers are well aware that I am a fan of erotica as I define it.
There is not much one can disagree with when what I write is solely my opinion.
I agree with Dr Russell’s introduction and definition of pornography. You may be able to refute anything she has said; it has been done many times and one then can refute back on into infinitum. There is no winner. There is no definitive research of any kind, but there is significant research that points in the direction of absolute harm.
Most pornographers are making money by degrading another human being, that eighty-percent of the degradation is female degradation is a pimple on the ass of this society. You’re guess that most porn makers are just nice businessmen trying to make a living says it all. Nice businessmen do not make money at the expense of others or society. It would be just as easy for me to guess that most pornographers are like Larry Flint — alleged daughter molesters.
additional Flynt stuff
It is quite easy for a man to sit around on his high little horse, and refute things such as this because quite frankly men are not being degraded and treated like things to “do something to” all over the internet. The men are the doers.
It is also easy to make judgments based on no experience. As you said you will protect your children from such until a time when they can make a differentiation between reality and pure garbage. But as an adult surely you understand the need to protect future generations of people in general. The harm will be done no doubt ‚and the fact that your children will be free of it should not be enough of a solution.
But as Alison Stokke’sfather found out, when the shoe is on the other foot it may be and the objectification is someone you love it’s a different story.
I don’t know how much you can protect children other than by keeping communication open.
My niece, twelve, knows things that she really is too young to conceptualize. She worries about her friends who at 12 and 13 do objectify themselves on their myspace pages
Porn isn’t Cooper’s breasts. It’s not really describle but a mature adult recognizes it when they see it
The point succinctly is that it might be the best we can hope for that people be brought up in a healthy environment free of pornography. We may have to settle for keeping them free from pornography until they have developed an understanding of relationships, sexuality, and respect for humanity, an understanding that females are just as human as males and deserve the same respect.
My breasts were really never an issue except as an example of the distorted thought of some people.
That’s what should be hoped for.
As for the high horse, men are abused in porn, too. Not as often as women, but enough for men to have a stake in the issue.
Cooper… my porn viewing does not involve pissing or raping or tying down. I understand you viewpoint COMPLETELY and am well aware of the “damage” that porn can do to the weak-minded or young. I also think that a lot of the uproar over porn comes not from your angle but from a puritanical bent ta=hat drives me nuts. For this reason alone I will defend its existence.
cooper,
When you say, “there is not much one can disagree with when what I write is solely my opinion,” you are creating a contradiction. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but when you communicate that opinion in a public forum such as a classroom, on the street, or on the Internet, you are opening yourself up to discussion.
Take this to the absurd and suppose I were to say, “The sky is pink and there is nothing that you can argue about because that is my personal opinion.” I would expect you and others to ask things like, “why are you sharing this if you don’t want to discuss it?” or “how can you possibly come to this opinion when there is no merit or logical rational for having such an opinion?” etc.
I understood the distinction you used between erotica and porn, and understood that your only argument was against porn. What I questioned where the words used to describe porn. Who is the judge to call something sexism or racist or homophobic or the most ambiguous term, disrespectful. Outside of a code of laws, people will define these terms based on their personal morality, and for each person this differs slightly, in some cases, greatly. So there can never be an objective standard of porn, so this means we cannot generalize and must talk about specific examples that one might consider porn.
There is significant research that shows correlations that seem positive and correlations that seem negative. There is NOT any research that can conclude that one thing leads to something else. Science doesn’t work that way. Research, including experimental research, at bests talks in terms of correlations. Here is where the difficulty lies. It is quite easy to find correlations between two variables. And because professors are under constant pressure to publish, most studies focus on overly generalized relations between two variables and really don’t say much. I can create a hypothesis stating that eating a lot of food will make you fat, and easily design and execute a study that will provide me the data needed to confirm this correlation. And then in popular journals and media you will see a clip that says, Scientists say that if you eat a lot of food you will get fat. But this over simplifies the question. What about people with high metabolisms or construction workers? Construction workers can eat quite a lot of food and not get fat because their job is very physical. My hypothetical study overlooked hundreds of other variables that could significantly change the results. This is the case with most other “scientific” research involving correlations, especially in psychological studies. If you like, I am willing to post an analysis on any research of your choice, either pro or con porn, to show its limitations. From a pragmatic perspective, I can say personally that I have a high respect for most people regardless of sex or other factors. I know I had access to porn at an early age, as well as many other factors that lead to bad stuff happening. Not a lot of bad stuff has happened that I can attribute to all that “bad” stuff I grew up with. So there seems to be other factors involved with people growing up to be bad people. My guess is bad parenting and bad peers have astronomically more negative influence than porn, sex in general, drugs, guns, violence, or religion. So be a decent parent and pay attention to who your kids hang out with, and they’ll probably be ok.
“Most pornographers are making money by degrading another human being”
This is a popular mantra with anti-whatever groups. I’m all for stopping people from forcing others to do something against their will. And I’m all for stopping people from physically harming another person when no threat exists. But there is a line between reality and fiction. What about all the men and women who run their own porn sites or businesses and who feature themselves? Maybe you would say they are degrading themselves, but that changes your statement. You said other human beings. Ok so let’s except this change. They would probably argue that they are not degrading themselves. So you would now have to change your statement to be more specific and define what you explicitly mean (which you should have done at the start) by degrading. What about a McDonald’s manager who tells one of his employees to go in the bathroom and clean out the toilets (have you been in a McDonald’s toilet?)? I can see a good argument for that being degrading and someone is profiting off of it. The problem with this mantra is that someone is trying to be the moral police and tell others how to behave. If the people involved ask for help, I’m all for helping them. But if they are telling me to mind my own business, I mind my own business. There are a couple of clear cut issues base on our social norms like protecting children and anti-slavery, but once we start moving into other areas it become more of an issue of individual preference.
“that eighty-percent of the degradation is female degradation is a pimple on the ass of this society”
What this shows is economic demand. The number will probably be much higher if you put it in terms of catering to men, because then we can add in gay porn. (btw: your argument seems to be lacking in mentioning gay porn). As I mentioned I see this as showing that women are more sexually empowered than men. Women currently tend to have more options and opportunities when it comes to sex, where a man isn’t as empowered. I believe this lack of male sexual empowerment also accounts for male sexual deviants who become dangers to society. Men tend to turn to porn because they have fewer sexual opportunities on average than women. I don’t mean to imply that women are more sexually active; I only mean women have more sexual opportunity than men. Add to this that evolution really compounds this by making men chemical factories that generates the urge to have lots of sex. Now that’s unfair.
“Nice businessmen do not make money at the expense of others or society.”
Umm…yeah they do. Or do you steal everything you need? Probably not. You pay for stuff like gas and milk, right? Those are expenses. And someone, actually a lot of people, are making money from you, and they should or else why go through all the trouble, right? On top of this, porn producers also pay taxes that support stuff like public highways, and schools, and social security, and all kind of other cool stuff. Given it’s such a big industry, they help out quite a bit. And we can also say that the porn industry is an industry so that means it creates a market for employment. Even better, this industry does not often require very much education. And here is the rub. Academics love to pick on anything that doesn’t require lots and lots of schooling.
“It would be just as easy for me to guess that most pornographers are like Larry Flint”
This is called an ad hominem attack. This means you are attacking a person and not the issue at hand. Larry Flint may be a total butt hole, but he isn’t the universal ruler of porn. You can go to any profession from ditch digger to President of the United States and find people with really dark stuff going on in their personal lives. I’m sure there is a police officer in the world who has molested his or her child. Does this mean all cops are child molesters? I find that outrageous because I know a lot of cops personally. Most have really tough jobs that very often deal with the ugliest parts of humanity, and they rise above it. Catholic priests are another example. Quite a few seem to be freaks. But I think we would find most are decent people. And so it goes for pornographers. Yeah, they tend to live looser lifestyles, but I’m sure most deal with the same issues as everyone else.
The irony of Larry Flint is that he did more for free speech than most other people ever will. So the very people that bad mouth him still owe him something. I don’t know much about him outside of the movie from several years back, so I can’t speak to his character. If he breaks the law, he should face the consequences. But that goes for all people, not just him.
I think it’s great when anyone takes a stance on something and would encourage them to really develop their arguments. I’m not so much interested in arguing one side or another. My main interest is in the logic of the argument itself.
Thanks for the post and the response. I’ll copy this response on both blogs.
There is significant research that shows correlations that seem positive as well correlations that seem negative. There is no research that can conclude that one thing leads to something else. — said exactly that in my comment.
I am quite aware of correlation. I am aware of research and the academic speak does nothing to lesson my argument. It wasn’t an argument it was my definition. The point of this very simple post was not to argue about what porn is, but to give my definition of what it is and to state plain and simply that men pissing all over women, raping them — among some of the more mild things — is not something that the mind of a prepubescent child should be watching. There is enough of an understanding of the human brain at that age to know that those kinds of images are harmful.
As a woman I do not have to justify my definition of pornography or the nausea which occurs in the pit of my stomach when I see it.
All the academic speak in the world does not take away the fact the pornography is degrading and in a civilized society it has no place.
In case you have not noticed the number of kids who have parents who are going to do all those things you suggest is dwindling.
I would not for one moment care about the personal pornographers who make and solicit their own private little porn films featuring themselves. (There is some indication, at least according to an article in the times last Sunday, that the little guy is cutting in to the profits of the large porn-kings.) It would also be easier to prosecute the little guy — should their films become too available to an inappropriate audience. These are not the people making billions of dollars exploiting women. The point of this post had nothing to do with pornography as an industry, that is much too large a post for a personal blog.
The analogy of the person hired as a janitor to clean toilets is pretty bad. The fact is cleaning toilets is a job which you may consider degrading, but someone has to do it. Someone has to clean toilets. No one has to fuck hard or cum in someone’s mouth on film. So the necessary job — degrading in your opinion — is still a necessary job. I find it hard to compare to the unnecessary outright degradation of a human being on film or other media to a job which is necessary in a civilized society.
This was not meant as a “be all or end all on porn”, it was meant to be my opinion. This is a personal blog and by being such one cannot post volumes of information all at once. This is not a feminist blog, or an academic blog where one pontificates for hours — losing every single reader halfway through. If one person can read a few paragraphs and think about it a little deeper than that is all this blog was meant to do.
Again with the expense thing — come on. It is economically necessary for people to make money selling necessary goods. Again necessary goods.
I bet the daughter Flynt raped would give a flying crap about what he did for free speech. As a nation I think we could have handled free speech without the likes of him.
Goldy: I am against all pornography as I define it. I however would th ink it hard to find too many women who find the overt nasty stuff in anyway exciting. I also wonder some women actually tolerate being with someone who finds that kind of thing exciting.
I am fond of erotica — as I define it. I am not however going there on this blog. I’m afraid Greg would be posting volumes here as he expects a seminar.
I’ll try to avoid most items because you repeated this is your opinion, but I do want to comment on the stuff I introduced and you responded to.
The janitor analogy is good based on economics. Nobody HAS to clean the toilets. Well maybe there are some health codes that must be followed, but we can say a person doesn’t HAVE to run a McDonalds. This is an economic feature, an economic opportunity presents itself and the market responds by filling it. It is easy to say nobody HAS to do pornography. Statistically there is a least one woman who likes to do it. I would guess there is more than one. What other job should a person take that pays the same instead of in the porn industry? Cleaning toilets? Food service? Slaughterhouse? For many people this is the best return for their time. It’s easy to sit back and say that they can put themselves through school and get a good job and so on. But to actually be these people is a different thing.
Regarding necessary goods. What about wants? Expensive wine is not a necessary good, jewelry is not necessary, cologne is not necessary. And porn is not necessary. These are all wants.
As far as Flint, I was just pointing out the irony. Yeah someone else would have stepped up if not Flint, but most likely another porn czar and we would just be using his or her name instead of Flint’s.
You keep saying your just stating an opinion. But it’s more than that. You genuinely care about this issue and seem to hope to convince others to join up this cause. I agree that a blog is generally a short blurb engine, but you’ll carry your passion with you outside the blog. So it would be good to really think about what your opposition is saying and how to counter them well (not for here, but in other arenas).
I think I remember something about you relating to anthropology (maybe cultural?). It would be cool to investigate the lives of porn workers. There’s probably work to build on, and I’ll actually look around for some out of personal curiosity. I would be curious about the children of people that work in the industry. I’m sure at least some grow up to be successful.
Eliminating porn just won’t happen. It would be more productive to work with the industry to establish more standards and practices that focus on giving parents tools for protecting kids, protecting under aged people from getting sucked into the industry, and helping industry workers with their own basic rights.
No one has to clean toilets where you live maybe but somewhere out there there is someone who out of necessity and lack of other skills may have no choice, either way in this society toilets have to be cleaned. Despite it being a choice for the person who is doing the cleaning, it still has to be done. No one has to view or make porn. The analogy for me does not fit unless twisted and you did twist it nicely.
Regarding necessary goods. What about wants? Expensive wine is not a necessary good, jewelry is not necessary, cologne is not necessary. And porn is not necessary. These are all wants.
“Wants” is a whole different tangent to go off on.
As far as Flint, I was just pointing out the irony. Yeah someone else would have stepped up if not Flint, but most likely another porn czar and we would just be using his or her name instead of Flint’s. — OK
You keep saying you’re just stating an opinion. But it’s more than that. You genuinely care about this issue and seem to hope to convince others to join up this cause. I agree that a blog is generally a short blurb engine, but you’ll carry your passion with you outside the blog. So it would be good to really think about what your opposition is saying and how to counter them well (not for here, but in other arenas).
I think I remember something about you relating to anthropology (maybe cultural?). It would be cool to investigate the lives of porn workers. There’s probably work to build on, and I’ll actually look around for some out of personal curiosity. I would be curious about the children of people that work in the industry. I’m sure at least some grow up to be successful.
Greg I do not have time to tackle the pornography issue. I work for a non-profit which deals with refugees, resettlement, and issues of international and national laws which deal with such — as well as fund raising. I am not about to take on a full pornography campaign and it is pretty presumptive of you to tell me what I need to write and how I need to write it. There is a lot of information out there from varied sources which fills the need of explanation and argument. The fact is that on a blog no one is going to read through volumes of information in the case o pornography at least not at this blog. The point is to get people to consider and they can certainly look up the arguments themselves.
You are right as was Robert Jenson when he said
“Scholars defending pornography often analyze texts in ways disconnected from the reality of how male consumers use the material – as a masturbation facilitator in which there is little “interrogation” of the “transgressive” possibilities of images of women objectified and degraded sexually. Such scholars also often assert that because the women choose to perform, any criticism of the industry is implicitly criticism of those women. These simplistic defenses must be challenged by investigating the conditions under which women choose and then focusing on the real question of choice: Why do men choose to seek sexual satisfaction in images of women being dominated and humiliated in sexual contexts?”
There is as a matter fact a notable film by a media studies professor from the college I attended. Dr. Chyng Sun, “Fantasies’ Matter: Pornography, Sexuality and Relationships”.This film includes interviews with pornography producers, performers, and consumers, as well as with scholars, critics, and activists – takes an honest look at the increasingly important role of pornography in contemporary culture. Industry insiders explain what making pornography is really like, while those who use it talk honestly about its effects on their lives. In a culture that either celebrates pornography as liberation or condemns it as immoral, never has it been more important to assess honestly the role of sexually explicit material in our everyday lives without fear of where that exploration takes us. “Fantasies’ Matter” offers viewers a route into these crucial questions.
Some of Dr. Chyng Sun’s opinion here below.
“It is typical that liberal-minded people, when facing censorship, would rush to defend pornographers’ right to produce whatever they want, even if the products objectify, humiliate and violate women. But shouldn’t we ponder what we are defending and what kind of value system supports that defense?
One of the most popular booths at the expo was for the BangBus, which consistently drew large crowds of almost entirely male fans. What’s the BangBus concept? One of the producers explained that the videos show men in a large van, picking up what appear to be women on the streets, talking them into having sex, and then degrading them in some way dropping them off in desolate places, not giving them money promised, or throwing their belongings out the door…
There are few boundaries that haven’t been pushed, as pornographers race to the shocking, ridiculous and humiliating, connecting visceral reactions to sexual pleasure. As an Asian woman, I found the racist stereotypes used in certain genres of pornography particularly oppressive.
Pornography encourages people to disregard others’ pain for one’s own pleasure. Many people I interviewed acknowledged that, based on their own experience and knowledge of the human body, certain sex acts they’ve watched in films likely would have been painful for the female performers. However, they argued that since the performers were paid, it was not the viewers’ concern, and they acknowledged that they get aroused watching it. That mentality helps create a world in which a producer can brag about having originated a popular video series that shows women gagging during forceful oral sex.
Although pornography is often rationalized as a celebration of women’s sexuality and liberation, some gonzo pornographers were direct about their anger and contempt (or their imagined customers’) for women. When asked why he used certain brutal sex acts in his films, one producer replied that when a man gets angry at his wife, he can imagine she is the one being violated.
…[T]he essential message is the same: All women want sex all the time, in whatever fashion men want them.
Most of the women and men I interviewed first watched pornography in their early teens or even younger. In other words, pornography is sex education. In an already male-dominant society with epidemic levels of sexual and intimate violence, pornographic messages help further solidify and normalize male supremacy in the bedrooms and elsewhere…
In my interviews, it was painful to hear how both teenage boys and girls feel pressured to have lots of sex, often emotionally detached, at a younger and younger age; and how so many young women feel obligated to please men sexually because they believed that it was their role as a woman…
We should be afraid of government forces interested in repressing sexual expression. But we also should be afraid of the influence of misogynist pornography. These two fears are not mutually exclusive and can co-exist. Our fear of the former shouldn’t stop us from critiquing the latter.”
“Analyzing the Pornographic Text: Charting and Mapping Pornography Through Content Analysis”:
Acclaimed portrait photographer Timothy Greenfield-Sanders presents a behind-the-scenes
Acclaimed portrait photographer Timothy Greenfield-Sanders presents a behind-the-scenes look at the making of his new book of adult film star portraits, combining candid insights from a diverse collection of porn stars with reflections on sexuality from cultural observers, authors and artists.
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Gail Dines Presents: Pornography and Pop Culture (explicit) 11/2 hours
” A nice old Guardian Article”:
Porn degrades people attitudes toward women, it degrades young men’s attitudes toward women.
One final opinion — Women can not be compared to necessary goods. Women are human beings not products.
Interesting post, even if I disagree with some of the assumptions and ideas presented.
Being the staunch sexual libertarian that I am, I can’t agree with blanket condemations of a clandestine sector of humanity that has existed since the dawn of sexuality, especially since the dawn of mass communication. And, lol, I’m too much of a strict free expression buff to ever even consider encouraging the elimination of something as subjective as pornography.
A lot of the research you’re quoting is more subjectively judged than objective — but you admit that, and admit your personal biases readily. You make several points that make me think; while I may disagree, it’s clear, at least in your posts on the subject, that you’re at least trying to better understand the “one person’s porn is another’s art” paradox for yourself. Kudos, chica, for even attempting it.
I do, however, find it interesting that you tend to only focus on the heterosexual aspect of the adult entertainment industry. What about gay porn, transgendered works, or even critiques of the various fetish communities?
Is a man fucking another man in the ass for a pictorial judged by the same degrading, demeaning standards you’re applying to heterosexual activities? Or a woman fisting another woman for lesbian audiences?
Are recorded instances of watersports or bondage art measured by a different subjective standard? Or self-made videos and works created, and freely distributed, by swingers and voyeurists? For decades, things like homosexuality and alternative lifestyles existed, in the media, as what many simply write off as merely disturbing pornography.
And what about nonsexually explicit erotica? Foot fetishists, for example?
Just some things to think about… too lazy to really add much, I guess.
Jason:
I wish I had more time to address all that, but I wrote this as I came home from a meeting and I have a ton of things to do right now.
The facts is, as I explained, I can’t possible address all those issues at once.
Fact is eighty-percent of the porn out there is degrading to women alone and therefore that is what I am concentrating on at this time. It is hard enough to get people to read one simple sentence never mind a post full of information overload. As I stated my prejudices are clear and I am stating them here in my blog.
Anything which degrades another human being in the way pornography does, not in a setting of true complicity but in a setting of perceived force and oppression is porn, I am merely talking about a small part of the pornography issue.
A man fucking another man in the ass is no more porn than a man fucking a women in the standard way. They are pictures and one can’t make judgments on something like that unless the context is revealed. I imagine to some it would be erotic.
I already defined pornography versus porn-for the purposes of my posts. It seems to be that easily, depending on the context, the aforementioned “ass fucking” picture could be considered either, depending on the context.
The distinction to try to make it clearer ( from a Jill Manning definition -“While erotica has also been defined as literature or art intended to arouse sexual desire, it is distinguished from pornography in that it is void of violence, illegal portrayals (e.g., children), sexism, racism, and homophobia, and is respectful of the human beings involved.”
I’m not saying all those questions aren’t valid, I am just saying that when one is posting in a personal blog one can not, without losing a significant number of readers, pontificate for fifteen pages or even present verifiable facts for fifteen pages. This is why these posts were done a little at a time.
I wish I had time to say more, but I must run. It is a day of which is not really a day off.
I’m sure this will not help my blog get in to the PG category any time soon.
I won’t indulge my thoughts on the subject here. It looks like you have a couple of blog posts in the comments, more than enough to keep you busy. I was here earlier but it’s gotten wild.
You clarified your definition of porn and presented your opinion. I can’t argue with the opinion, but like you said there is evidence on both sides.
I understood what you were trying to do and why brevity was necessary. I’ve also read you for a long time now. I understand there are people coming in off the cuff, people who have not had the experience of your words in the past and do not know where you are coming from.
No this won’t be PG rated anytime soon. The discussion it worth it.
[…] Cooper Posting on Pornography and the Dead Fox. […]
Debate is Sexy–
Politics is pornographic.
An interesting article on what art is http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n9_v42/ai_8970383
What is pornographic is that taxpayers paid for that jar of urine.
Artists sometimes go so far off the deepend they’ve lost touch with reality.
Honestly-Pollack?
As for the human body and what is pornographic, it all depends on what the piece was created for an how it is interpreted by the observer, but again, there are some standards (child pornography) that should not be crossed and have no value whatsoever according to our current set of national values. However, given enough time, the ACLU will erase even this line.
Well this was a lot to take in early on a Friday afternoon after I was making cracks about reading trashy romance novels in my post today. Ahem…
When my youngest son was 9, the school he attended believed it was a good age to teach physiology — hence — human sexuality. Kids hadn’t reached puberty, so no giggles, squirms, or snickers during instruction.
One of the requirements was for my son to present his learning to his dad and myself. My husband was mortified, but did a great job of not showing it. Our son handled it famously — vocabulary, anatomy, and all — because he didn’t know otherwise. He could’ve been reciting The Gettysburg Address for all the emotion he gave it.
Skip forward five years, and I am delicately learning not to freak out when I see remnants of downloaded “cartoons” in the trashcan which are actually not site content, but teasers to the content. I suppose I should wipe my brow that my 14-year-old needs to be 18 to access what’s on the site. But he isn’t even close to being stupid and knows that if he can see this much without having to “belong” free of charge, then what the hell!
The cartoons I’ve found depict animal-like creatures with ridiculously giant penises penetrating vaginas exposed through bizarre space suits. The male creatures stand stoically, muscles strained, face contorted in a fierce scowl, and the female creature is writhing in supposed ecstacy — or is it pain? I’m not sure.
I could laugh, because I believe the author expects that it’s funny, but it makes sex and women look so ridiculous. Hell, it makes men even more ridiculous because who the hell actually has a penis that size? Who would want to? Wouldn’t it look a bit odd in pants?
And what audience are these “comics” intended for? Should I hope that there’s another site somewhere that shows the female characters taking powerless men creatures to task with gigantic barbed dildos? That’s a healthy reaction, right?
Equating sex with porn is wrong on every level. Sex is a normal, healthy, and enjoyable function of life. Porn is a business. And when people are out to make money with that kind of a product, they’ll do anything to increase their bottom line.
I agree with greg that it’s impossible to define pornography, and I get concerned about any efforts to do so, because of freedom of speech issues, because one man’s (or woman’s) porn is another man’s/woman’s erotic.
Still, lines have been crossed when nudity and sexual pleasure are equated with porn and when breast feeding is viewed as something scandalous.
Thanks for the post, Cooper. I appreciate your time in responding to everyone. I’m like this with most topics because the bottom line is that we cannot generalize anything. That is dangerous. We have to look at details, and come up with solutions one at a time. There is not one blanket answer to pornography, feminism, racism, nationalism, religion, or whatever the general discussion is. People tend to get so swept up into movements, they often forget about the details. Often those details work against their own better interests.
Also thanks for the added research info. I’m checking them out. Obviously, as you probably know by now, I have my comments, but I’ll spare everyone. But everyone is always welcome to ask.
Fact is eighty-percent of the porn out there is degrading to women alone and therefore that is what I am concentrating on at this time.
Um, that’s not a fact. That’s a piece of summative data, based on some preconceived, structured sampling done to probably measure subjective perception, I’m assuming culled from a less-than-credibly independent, non biased source. (You cite way too many anti pornography feminists, mostly from for me to assume otherwise).
It’s an assumption, based on data collected.
The reason I asked brought up those other questions? Just to be an asshole
No, seriously … actually, it was an attempt to goad discussion and, well, heh, to give ya something to think about off line. Porn is such a divisive issue in gender politics, primarily because personal opinion often, esp. in something like a blog post, can easily be misconstrued as a blanket generalization meant to speak for ALL women, black people, feminists, etc.
Just wanted to pick apart the scholarly Cooper from the Personal Ethics Cooper. I think that’s why there tends to be so much confusion, at least amongst other your blog readers, as to what you’re trying to convey, holistically, informatively, and what you personally believe and/or are offended by.
Lol, too bad you’re not closer. This’d make for one hell of a long night’s discussion/booze fest. There may not be enough Cuervo or Bombay Sapphire in the world, chica
casey: Touche.
Danny: Debate is Sexy–
Politics is pornographic. Indeed I think you are closer to the answer than I.
kellypea:I could laugh, because I believe the author expects that it’s funny, but it makes sex and women look so ridiculous.
Exactly
Exactly.
Equating sex with porn is wrong on every level. Sex is a normal, healthy, and enjoyable function of life. Porn is a business. And when people are out to make money with that kind of a product, they’ll do anything to increase their bottom line. Indeed it’s true and one of the effects of viewing the type of pornography on children who have yet to know better or words yet children without parents like you is that those perceptions do not always go away.
Indeed: It’s easy for me to define because most often it is my gender degraded by it. I can define it by the way it makes me feel — sick.
Greg: It certainly did goad a lot of noise here. I’m rather used ti it by now though one way or another.
I’ll stop over at your blog. Blogger really give me a hard time when trying to add links and when having to verify words so more often than not I just do not bother with those blogs.
Jason: “Um, that’s not a fact. That’s a piece of summative data, based on some preconceived, structured sampling done to probably measure subjective perception”
As with any research I can find on the subject in either direction. As I am sure you are well aware that the data out there on pornography, on either side is much as you describe. You find very little research done on pornography from an objective point of view as it is either done by the pro or the con side of the coin. ( unless you’re talking of econ research of which there is a fair amount as of late )
So, my opinion is based on the way this kind of thing makes me feel, the way it makes a million women feel. If this were media depicting lynchings, if this were media depicting vile acts toward any segment of the population which is historically oppressed there would be no question it was wrong. But hey, It’s just women.
Yes Jason, along night at the bar in which we scan the porn sites are our little laptops and chart the percent of sites which do not degrade women.
I agree with indeterminacy… “Still, lines have been crossed when nudity and sexual pleasure are equated with porn and when breast feeding is viewed as something scandalous.” plus many of the other great comments.
I’m also thankful for your stand and writing about it.
I have two teenage (13&16) daughters which I view from the father side of that and how boys their age view distinguish between love, sex and porn.
Now… I could really get something going here by saying that we (my wife and I) have taught both of them that sex is for marriage. Old fashioned eh… Will it happen? I don’t know (maybe/maybe not). But I do know that I had rather try to instill certain boundaries than have them end up with someone like a friend of mine nearly 30 sex partners, divorced, drug addict, sex parties and into porn too. I’m not stereo typing anyone. Just stating facts.
Thanks for the good content.
David: Thank you for stopping in and taking part in the conversation.
I’ve written about abstinence, and admit to being
against teaching abstinence or to put it more succinctly against the wasteful government spending for abstinence programs ( the money as you probably know went into the pockets and programs which had nothing to do with abstinence). Mainly teaching abstinence very seldom works.
That having been said a parent has the right to
teach their children whatever they wish as long as that they do not disregard the facts which show that teenagers more often than not do not wait until marriage and should be given information regarding birth control, and STD’s. Teaching them to respect themselves is important and in the end may be the biggest deterrent — not to sex before marriage — but at least rampant sexual experimentation.
I wrote a post some time ago on abstinence,over two years ago as a matter of fact back when I was on blogger.
I’ve yet to address it again in any depth.
Abstinence, Nah
Cooper…Trust me, I’m not naive (which I know you probably know anyway). The cool thing is that sex talk (not porn talk) is open with us and our two daughters. We have been more open and direct than our parents were with us.