For the purpose of future posts, and considering the email I received following the posts “Gang Rape Scene — Erotic Fantasy?”, “Sexism Where Does it Begin”, and “The Creepy Feeling I Get –Suicide Girls Redux”, I want to make a distinction between Erotica and Pornography, the way I see it.
There is always some argument with this, be it legal or moral, and some feel there is no distinction but for my purpose here this definition by Dr. Diana Russell will do.
“Erotica refers to sexually suggestive or arousing material that is free of sexism, racism, and homophobia, and respectful of all human beings and animals portrayed. This definition takes into account that humans are not the only subject matter of erotica. For example, I remember seeing a short award-winning erotic movie depicting the peeling of an orange. The shapes and coloring of flowers or hills can make them appear erotic. Many people find Georgia O’Keeffe’s paintings erotic. But erotica can also include overtly or explicitly sexual images.”
Hence, I define pornography as material that combines sex and/or the exposure of genitals with abuse or degradation in a manner that appears to endorse, condone, or encourage such behavior.
This will be when I am referring to the portrayal itself. Remembering that for me it is control and history of the industry which bothers me more than anything except the moral harm it does to very young boys and girls.
It is about consequences, and there are consequences which I would like to post on over then next few weeks without having anyone think I am making a judgment regarding their behavior.
There are just a few things I’d like you to consider in regard to pornography whatever side of the issue you are on.
This was a prelude. I’ll link to this in my future posts but I feel it is best to be short and sweet so digesting can take place slowly. No need for gluttony.
I will be running a 5K in the morning and spending the evening here with friends watching Georgetown Win their basketball game. I may or may not be around depending on how boring the game is.
Notes on this theme. It is some kind of theme still in development really meant for a group blog so it is a little strange so if you find things quirky let me know. You can only see the comment count when you go to comment.
I will be playing with this until I find something I feel comfortable with. That was the only good thing about blogspot I had jacked that theme and it was me.
Under the cut something to make you laugh. It does make me glad that I am from almost from Australia.
I found this thanks to Centripetal Notion Enjoy.
Good luck with the 5K.
Interesting personal perspective on the destinction between pornography and erotica.
Personally, I’ve always been on the other side of the debate, not because I’m a, well, guy, but because I was exposed to the sex-positive feminist and liberatarian/anti-censorship feminist scholars, having grown up near anti-porn crusaders like Jerry Falwell. Lol, I’ve read some Russell, but I readily admit my bias towards the research of Gayle Rubin, Camille Paglia, and the work of groups like Feminists Against Censorship.
I’ve always felt that one’s view of the definition of both porn and erotica comes down to individual experiences and perspectives on sex and intimacy in general more than anything else.
Lol, you gots your biases and I gots mine, I guess. We all have ‘em. Nice to know, at least, where you’re coming from, even if we (probably) disagree on quite a few things, in this area.
Don’t see why anybody would jump all over you for it. Just a personal belief — we all have a right to say what we want, when we want
Hell, we’ve been leaving comments on each other’s blogs for going on two years now. Amazing what the new things ya learn, eh? Oh well…good luck with the 5K, chica
And sorry for the long comment. Wrote a novel tonight.
thanks mikey.
jason: The definition was posted only to set a line of sorts for future posts I am planning. The definition is not mine but it is as close as I can come to differentiate and to assure people reading this that I do not find “Erotica” (as I have defined it ) disturbing in the least.
I don’t pay a whole lot of attention to feminist theory, I took the standard class as an elective and I yawned a lot. My grandmother, my role model for all else, was a rampant feminist.
I think Martha Nussbaum’s breakdown of the concept of objectification is closer to where I am at. She says that objectification ( which is the term I use for one of my issues with porn)refers to a number of distinct ways of treating a person like a thing: “as an instrument, as lacking in autonomy, as lacking in agency, as interchangeable with other objects, as
lacking in boundary integrity, as something that can be owned, or as
something whose experience and feelings (if any) need not be taken into
account. Not all of these are morally objectionable per se. Sound evaluation
of each is heavily dependent on the context in which it takes
place. What is always morally wrong is the instrumental treatment of
human beings as mere tools for the purposes of another “if it does not
take place in a larger context of regard for humanity.”
I’m looking at porn as something that can do a large amount of damage these days ( to kids who have not yet learned anything about sex, intimacy etc) due to the mass availability on line and the extremely violent nature of “eighty-percent” of it.
We’ve already spoken about the definition, and I can most certainly see where you’re coming from. And I can see that a great deal of what you find distasteful I do as well
I would ask why given that definition you referred to Suicide Girls as porn, though.
Good luck with the 5K. Or perhaps I should say, as I doubt you’ll get this before then, that I hope you did well.
Very much enjoyed your sexism post and it’s funny that we’re both blogging about porn but I don’t see anything wrong with it as long as it is not promoting suppression/abuse of women OR men!
OK, but isn’t that definition like saying “Erotica is what porn would be if it weren’t bad?” The fix is in on the argument, but both definitions still depend on I know it when I see it.
I liked all those posts. Don’t feel you have to explain yourself. I think you do just fine without having to do so.
Don’t let others make you feel like you have to prelude everything you write with an explanation.
For the purposes of series of posts it is a nice idea.
You always keep it good here and you never seem to have a problem. I’m with Jacob. You do not need to prelude your thoughts as a way of not offending people here, if that is what you are doing. I appreciate the prelude, but this is your blog and you can say anything you want.
I disagree only half the time.
You’re going to have to separate your problem with control of the media from your fears of the “consequences” of the technology because by your definition of erotica ( as the wombat already said ) “Suicide Girls” would not be pornographic.
It is pornographic to you only in that it is not under the control of the women.
I’m with Jacob
Erotica to me is DH Lawrence and some contemporary women, though can be found in paintings, sculptures etc and nature
Porn is violent and exploitive. It doesn’t leave room for imagination. It’s not subject to interpretation
Just my personal feeling
I have been thinking about this because of your posts.
and alas, doug finds the words that I didn’t when we spoke about this. *tips cap*
Nice way to avoid alienating all your male readers.
That you are not a sex positive feminist is a great relief. That you are not a feminist at all is a great relief.
One question.
What would you call it then?
That definition is better than anything I could come up with. I prefer photography that leaves a little (or a lot) to the imagination. Such images have lasting artistic value, whereas pornography amounts to throwaway images. forgettable and indistinguishable from other similar images.
it’s a personal definition, meaning each individual will see the images differently.
Or maybe put into different words: Erotica stimulates the physical through the imagination. Pornography bores the imagination.
I look forward to reading the subsequent posts.
Wombat: I have to divide all this up. The suicide girl site is pornographic in it’s pretense of control by women. I am going to go look at it again before i keep writing.
This is the beginning of training.… so to speak. I needed to blow the lead out of my ass.
Tisha: Technically that is not much different than my rather convoluted and at times rather confused view of porn but I will get to all that eventually. I’m going to hop on over to your blog and see what is up.
Nice to meet you.
Doug: Well pron is bad because it is not erotica.….….erotica doesn’t do 1, 2, or 3 and porn does 1, 2, and three.
Jacob: I dont feel I have to explain myself I wanted to post in little bits instead of all at once and I wanted to clarify some things before hand.
John: We will get to that and it is partially answered above but I don’t really want to post a blog post in my comments.
Only fifty-percent?
pia: That is, in simple form where I stand.
EW: well he is a word man.
randy: ugh, I have to thank you though because one of your comments gave me a very important point to base some of my argument on„„„later on. Be sure to catch it.
I don’t call it anything. I just am.
Inde: Thanks inde. They will be scattered among some levity , politics. personal and poetry.
I am no glutton and I have ADHD so it’s better for you to post things in little spurts.
I didn’t disagree with your opinions on “Suicide Girls” completely. I think you made it sound a little more cut and dry than it is. I have to go back and look, tomorrow.
Well, this has been a subject that we debated in our human sexuality class and being in a serious and long term relationship, well, let’s say it has peeked out now and then…
I have said it before in other posts. I do not like porn. I have no use for it and nothing could turn me off faster than porn and that is a huge thing and something to be taken seriously (not by you… worry not! By Loverboy? FO SHO!
) given my libido…
I was actually going to address this after having put up the video with the prostitutes but I simply did not have the time as we left for Barcelona after just a day’s notice and that is no easy feat with two small kids.
Pornography lacks sensuality… it lacks intimacy… it is very anumalistic in an empty soulless way and it is objectifying and, all in all, utter shit.
That is how I feel about it personally so I have the choice to steer clear from it and so I do. Period.
BUT… and here’s the big BUT… studies have shown that societies with more permissive views and open ways fare much better and have very, very low rates of violence and abuse and overall crimes against women and such open ways are more commonly found in societies where women have an almost equal standing to men.
Denmark is my case in point. They go as far as allowing rape scenarios to be portrayed in their pornography (that has been something simply not allowed in the US and a subject of much controversy and debate) and similar such violent scenarios and it is, and I know from personal experience seeing that I am Danish and have lived there and have plenty of friends and family from there and knmow what the women from Denmark are like, one of the countries in the world with the lowest incidence of sexual abuse, rape, overall violence against women and as a society it is known for its equal treatment of women. The typical Danish woman is strong, independent and quite the feminist.
And when I speak of feminism I do not subscribe to any book or theory. I will be very honest and come right out and tell you that I have never read any book by any renowned, or not, feminist out there. To me, it simply means that I believe that as women we need to share full and equal rights with men (getting same pay blah, blah, blah) in society and fully support the activism towards achieving such goals… as an individual it means that I should be free to live my life exactly as I choose to so if some women truly want to be 50s style housewives then they should… if others feel the corporate life is for them then so be it… I work at times at others I don’t… I have had kids but simply because I happened to fall in love with the right man and felt that having kids was right for me and NO I do not think it is a woman’s obligation and I will be damned if my kids are raised thinking that marriage and kids and that regurgitated crap is their predetermined destiny… I don’t cook and if I do it best be fast because I will be damned if I am stuck in a kitchen too long… the list goes on but the bottomline is that the choice was mine…
So folllowing such a line of thought, if there are people out there that like pornography and are fine with it, then when it comes to the “should it be allowed or not” debate, then I am for it. And by that I mean pornography by legal companies and the like and nothing that would in any way support or condone the sex trade of women and children…
I am not crazy about it, it sickens me, but I would even support the Danish model and guidelines. I believe, and very strongly so, that a society’s views on sex and sexuality and a woman’s role in it (and though pornography does objectify women, or that is simply my opinion, I don’t think that its existence demeans a woman’s place in society as the actresses in the industry, for the most part, are there voluntarily and exercising their freedom, and right, to choose) speak volumes as to how advanced a society is as well as shows, and quite glaringly at that, its flaws.
Apply this model to the Middle East, Europe and the rest of the world, check into the rates of crimes against women and the severity of said crimes, crosscheck it to their views on women as well as their views on sexuality and to what is in their law books with regards to the subject matter at hand, and you will be surprised (or not!
) at what you might find.
Loverboy has no problem with porn. I have a HUGE problem with it and am completely sickened by it. But I am not against it and am thankful for the luxury (and man do I look forward to the day when it need not be called a luxury but an inherent right!) of living in a country where I have the choice to view it or not.
I thought (I suppose because I have a ton of laundry to do and did not think I would be writing this much! DIOS MIO!) I would pop my 2 cents into the comment box!
Off I go to tackle the damn laundry… hey, Loverboy cooks and I have OCD and need to make sure no one pinks up my whites! Ciao y mil besos…
Hmmmmm…I’m thinking.
I had a friend just out of high school who could name over 200 porn-stars, and list their special gimmick. He grew out of it, got married, and has a kid.
I could never understand why people needed it so much.
I hate to always sound so hopeless but again apparently porn is a billion dollar industry (not unlike government officials who are direct secret mass consumers of it) that can’t be killed, because no matter what all it takes is one little cockroach to squirm out, and capitalize on more.
I’ve done tons of 3d images that some could call porn even though I called it comedy. I did it for shock value because I felt too much of this world is
far too desensitized to everything.
I want to feel inspired, and new truths usually do.
As always I think it’s all a matter of the point of view of the viewer and how that person lives with porn or without.
Then again I don’t know much about morals. I try not to hurt others.
I just hate living with guilt so I try best not create anything that could cause me guilt.
I used to think weird ideas, like if scientists were allowed to clone, make robot clones, etc,…they could make robots for people to do with whatever or however they please.… but then that wouldn’t solve anything really.
I think Earth is just a big ball of mud covered with ants known as people.
Whether we live civil, angry, or inhumane life on Earth continues regardless.
Me, happy so-so..*thumps chest*
Bennet:
“I hate to always sound so hopeless but again apparently porn is a billion dollar industry (not unlike government officials who are direct secret mass consumers of it) that can’t be killed, because no matter what all it takes is one little cockroach to squirm out, and capitalize on more.”
Yes This I know and so my posts will address some of this.
“I did it for shock value because I felt too much of this world is
far too desensitized to everything“
exactly.
Please come to class on time Bennet.
Mizzy B: Your commentary is more than welcome all the time.
“Apply this model to the Middle East, Europe and the rest of the world, check into the rates of crimes against women and the severity of said crimes, crosscheck it to their views on women as well as their views on sexuality and to what is in their law books with regards to the subject matter at hand, and you will be surprised (or not!
) at what you might find. ”
I’ve been doing quite a lot of that, I am still writing papers for the end of school and have been delightfully negligent in spending a lot of time in Maryland and skipping a lot of classes so I am going to do it slowly — piece by piece.
There are really only a couple issues I want to address. Statistics in regard to porn are hard because there really is no true authoritative study on it, for a variety of reasons.
Cool vid.
I wanna stay out of it but I will be glad to hear what you have to say in the future.
Little by little is the way go if you really want to change anyone’s opinion.
Your call on “Suicide Girls” pissed a few people off I bet. You don’t have to redeem yourself to me. I look forward to your future posts on this subject.